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 On No! Noq scoring 2007
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Curt Peterson

USA
22 Posts

Posted - Aug 31 2006 :  09:42:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My apologies to skate skiers. The revised scoring for the upcoming Noquemenon is not what I or our appointed MI cup subcommittee determined was the best course of action. At the annual Aug meeting, earlier this month, a totally new plan was voted in. That being:

Noque 50K: Classic starts at 200, skating at 180.
Noque 25K: Classic starts at 150, skating at 130.

Our subcommittee (with a member from each team) forwarded a plan to have both races scored with 200 points being awarded to 1st place and then descending by 1 point for each place. All we wanted to do was correct the unfair system used last yr. the dramatically penalized classic skiers and install a fair and equal system. We wanted to make sure that we encouraged all skiers, classic and skaters to participate in this great race by having a scoring system that would do just that. Now we have swung in the opposite direction favoring classic skiers. Again this was not our intention. This is really discouraging considering that the proposal of an appointed subcommittee was not even voted upon.

Regards, Curt Peterson

kuhl101

29 Posts

Posted - Aug 31 2006 :  11:37:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think it is a good idea to encourage people to do the classic race. First off, SKIERS should be able to do either technique. Secnod, the classic race is the premier event at the Noque. Third, the points would be skewed as a result of a diluted field resulting from people entering several different races.

Another point, we already have the michigan marathon, white pine stampede, and the vasa as skating marathons. If it were up to only me I'd suggest that there are very little or no points for the skating races at the noque and consider it a classic race.

That said, in the interest of encouraging participation and including everyone in the event favoring the classic race with the higher points seems to be a great compromise.

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mmuha

USA
311 Posts

Posted - Aug 31 2006 :  12:37:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit mmuha's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Although it was the subcommittee recommendation, the subcommittee was divided, and the recommendation was a compromise between people who wanted more points for the classic race and people who thought points should be equal for freestyle and classic.

We'll try it this year and see what happens.

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ATarnow

54 Posts

Posted - Sep 04 2006 :  3:11:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think Steve makes a good point. Too many skiers don't do classic races because they can't or havn't learned to ski the discipline. As a premiere classic event the Noque should be skewed much more in favor of classic to help those who have taken the time to be "complete" skiers.

Aaron,
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JHoule

13 Posts

Posted - Sep 04 2006 :  7:17:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another post in favor of counting the Noque as a classic race.
Steve clearly highlighted all the reasons to support this change.
Why not favor classic skiers in this marathon while the michigan marathon, vasa, and white pine favor skating? The principal event at the Noque is the classic race ~ a great place to encourage and support classic marathon skiers. Happy to see the change!


Edited by - JHoule on Sep 04 2006 7:35:40 PM
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Curt Peterson

USA
22 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2006 :  1:22:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks to Steve, Mike, Aaron, and Julie for your "right on" comments. I too feel that overall Mi Cup general classification high placing individuals should be well rounded and be able to ski classic as well as freestyle technique. As a skier who really enjoys classic skiing everyone might think that I should be happy with the recent scoring change for the Noque. That is not the case though. As Ernie mentioned in numerous emails to our subcommittee, we now, as of last yr's schedule, have more classic races than freestyle. Also the Vasa and White Pine marathons have historically been a freestyle race (well er...in modern history that is) and as such deserve the present scoring. We started this effort to change the noque scoring because to me it was an insult last year to simply make it a freestyle preference when in fact the noque organizers and factory teams emphasize classic. Nevertheless there are still more skate skiers than classic at the noque and that is why we felt that equalizing points was the way to go. And additionally we wanted a system that would encourage maximum participation in Michigans premier race. So my hope is that no skate skiers skip this race just because of this scoring change. We will monitor participation and make an assessment after this year's event.

Regards, Curt
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rbladel

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Sep 06 2006 :  11:16:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyone who wants to continue this debate may want to see the proposal that the Noque scoring commision presented, as all of our reasoning was laid forth. I did try to include the minority opinions as well. I'm pretty much of a computer zero, but I will try to place the document here as an attatchment for those interested. If I can't, email me at rjjkkbladel@sbcglobal.nett and I'll get it to you.

As I told Kurt, this doesn't really matter to me personally. I'll just ski the races I want regardless of any points avalilable.
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rbladel

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2006 :  08:00:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay, I'll try again.adopts some sort of complicated head-to-head ranking system like the FIS system, this problem will continue to exist, as it has for years already.


Respectfully,

The Michigan Cup-Noquemenon Scoring Commission

Randy Bladel, Jim Monroe, Mike Muha, and Denny Paull


hey Mike, it worked!

Thanks,

Randy Bladel
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rbladel

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2006 :  08:08:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oops, no it didn't. I'll try again. This may be in three posts.

Noquemanon Scoring Proposal for the Michigan Cup

The Noquemenon Ski Marathon was added to the Michigan Cup scoring starting this past 2006 season. It was scored as all previous Michigan Cup marathons have been in the past, by time only regardless of the technique discipline.

Because of many issues, including the prestige of the Noquenemon classic race, the lack of a full classic marathon in the Michigan Cup series, and the perception of unfairness and pent-up frustration of those skiers who prefer to race classic, a debate erupted on the ski trails and the web about scoring the Noquenenon in a different manner for the Michigan Cup.

To this end, a group of skiers representing several teams was commissioned by the Michigan Cup committee to come up with a proposal for scoring the Noquemanon for the Michigan Cup. We have debated the pros and cons of several scoring schemes, and have arrived at a fair consensus. I will attempt to outline our considerations here.

Proposal 1: Eliminate the Noquemenon from the Michigan Cup for reasons of the long travel distance for most MC skiers, and the difficulty experienced scoring this year’s race.

We did not choose this option, as we felt that the Michigan Cup should include races in all of the state, (or become the Lower Peninsula Cup), that this race represents the best opportunity to add a full classic marathon to the series, and the obvious quality of the race adds much to the MC. Adding the Noquemenon to the MC does not penalize those who choose not to attend, as there are ample other opportunities for skiers to score five races.

We understand that there was great difficulty in scoring the race last year, due to the inability to easily identify Michigan Cup competitors among the results of the Noquemenon. I (Randy Bladel) have spoken with Bob Mahaney, one of the founders and principle organizers of the race, and he has assured me that those problems can be addressed, probably by capturing the data at registration, making it easy with the chip timing used. Given the history of the Noquenenon organization improving the race from year to year, and learning from mistakes, I have no reason to doubt him.


Proposal 2: Use a “correction factor” to blend the results of the skate and classic race times. We didn’t choose this for several reasons. First, the scoring would be quite cumbersome and tedious. Second, what correction factor would be used? World Cup level differentials were suggested, but I believe that Michigan Cup differentials are considerably more. Third, on any given race day the conditions may favor one discipline over the other, making any correction factor chosen inappropriate for that day.


Proposal 3: Blend the finish orders, not the times, of the two disciplines. (i.e. first for the first skater, second for the first classic skier, third for the second skater, etc.) This was discarded also, since it is inherently unfair to either one discipline or the other, and makes no notice of the closeness of finishes or overall effort involved, and is also somewhat tedious for the scorer.


Proposal 4: Score only the classic results for the Michigan Cup. This proposal had some initial support, since this is how the American Ski Marathon Series scores the race, making it a designated classic race, thereby drawing the big guns to the classic race. (Bob Mahaney tells me the U.S. Ski Team has committed to racing the Noque next year)

We did not choose this option in the end because it was felt that we didn’t care to disenfranchise those who prefer to skate this tough race, even though those who prefer to classic have felt disenfranchised in the past.


Proposal 5: Score the Classic race starting at a full 200 points on down, and score the Skate race with 150 points on down, thereby favoring and promoting the classic race over the skate race. This proposal came to us via Denny Paull from the Straits Striders team meeting, and on this committee has support from both Denny and Mike Muha. The appeal of this proposal is that it does promote the one full classic marathon in the MC that would have full scoring available.

The reason the majority of the committee rejected this proposal is the same as in proposal 4: it disenfranchises those skiers who prefer to skate the Noque.


Proposal 6: Score both marathon races fully and independently. This is our consensus choice. It is fair to all skiers no matter what their chosen race, race day conditions, and relative competition in each race. It retains a high quality, well run, prestigious race in the Michigan Cup, and allows the Michigan Cup credence in representing the entire state. It introduces a full length classic technique marathon to the Michigan cup without unfairly scoring it against inherently faster skate times. It should be relatively simple to score.

One of the objections to this scoring scheme is that it results in two sets of mutually exclusive results, i.e. two winners, seconds, etc. It is felt by some that this discriminates against better skiers, allowing lesser skiers to score higher than they might otherwise.

We feel that this argument is invalidated by the way that the Michigan Cup is scored over the whole season. Each competitor is scored by his five best races only, therefore, there is plenty of other opportunity for skiers to compete head-to-head throughout the season. The races with small fields will always afford greater opportunity for higher scores, and relatively few ski all of the Michigan Cup races anyway. Unless the Michigan Cup
adopts some sort of complicated head-to-head ranking system like the FIS system, this problem will continue to exist, as it has for years already.


Respectfully,

The Michigan Cup-Noquemenon Scoring Commission

Randy Bladel, Jim Monroe, Mike Muha, and Denny Paull
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Hugh

42 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2006 :  7:54:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hugh's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Is there really a problem here? I see nothing to apologise for. Formerly, it was impossible to score maximum points by skiing a classic marathon; now it is possible. There is a small imbalance between skate and classic races in the MI cup, but it is still possible to do five counting races in one technique only.

As for 'disenfranchisement', that will always happen to anyone who chooses not to do the race that the committee has designated as primary for that day. You have not questioned the 'disenfranchisement' of those who choose to do the short races at a marathon, which is no more arbitrary than disenfranchising those who choose one technique rather than the other.

Unlike the sub-committee, I believe it is important that only one person score maximum points in any race: the competition would be greatly diluted by this. At the moment, it is difficult to score maximum points in any race, and the individual who does is indisputably the best performer on that day. The winner of a 'secondary' race on the same day could in principal be just about anyone, which would skew the Cup results.

Clearly, it is important that the committee's designated primary races should coincide with those of most racers: for example, to award 200pts for the classic korteloppet at the Birkie would be absurd when the best skiers would mostly do the long skate race anyway. There are enough 'spare' races that an individual may occasionally choose to do a race that is subsidiary for Mi Cup purposes without entirely sacrificing their overall Cup prospects.

Yes, it is nice to have equal numbers of classic and skate races in a series, but the imbalance is not gross and in its effect on skier development it is better to have more classic than more skate. It would be nice if the system forced racers to count scores in both techniques, but that can only work if more than half the races are counted, and few enough people manage to do even five.

That's enough for now.
Hugh

The views presented here do not necessarily reflect those of my wife.

Edited by - Hugh on Sep 07 2006 10:40:28 PM
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rbladel

USA
16 Posts

Posted - Sep 07 2006 :  10:41:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay, Hugh, but realize that more MC skiers skate the Noque than race it classic. If I were one of those, I might be miffed at the new scoring system.

What say you, Noque skaters? I think everyone who's posted here prefers to classic the Noque. Are you out there, Smiegels, Camp, West, Chip, etc?

Randy
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dirtkahuna

USA
74 Posts

Posted - Sep 17 2006 :  7:53:01 PM  Show Profile  Visit dirtkahuna's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm just an average nordic skier, specializing in the freestyle technique. I went to the Noque last year for two reasons: It looked like a blast (it was) and I needed to make up a race that I missed.

I got just enough points to earn a pin. Without the Noque I wouldn't have had a chance.

The new scoring system doesn't seem right to me. I would have preferred the 200 point system each for freestyle and classical. Let the skiers compete in the dicipline they prefer.
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mmuha

USA
311 Posts

Posted - Sep 28 2006 :  06:56:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit mmuha's Homepage  Reply with Quote
See Ernie's discussion at http://www.nordicskiracer.com/cgi-bin/news/news_item.asp?NewsID=941
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